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by Dr Marianne Trent, Clinical Psychologist
This article has been amended from Episode 57 of The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. If you'd prefer to listen to it then you can here. You can also watch it on YouTube here.
One of the things I've really enjoyed about this podcast is having the ability to help you learn about new and different ways that you can gain experience or even gain formal qualifications in psychology. So that is exactly what we are doing in today's episode and this is a method I've never heard of before. So with that little bit of intrigue, I will leave you now and you will, then you'll be introduced to my guest, and I will catch you on the other side. Hope you find this so useful. Hi, welcome along, and I just want to welcome and introduce our guest for today and we are joined by Anagha Sharma. Hi, Anagha.
Anagha Sharma 01:24
Hi, Marianne, it's really lovely to be here today.
Dr. Marianne Trent 01:27
It's so lovely to have you here and I again accosted you on LinkedIn. So you'd connected with me, I think after you'd read the clinical psychologist collective book, and then you were like, yeah, I am gonna connect with her, she seems alright and then I spotted recently, that you are something that I had never heard of and so I messaged you for more information. You are a trainee, clinical and trainee forensic psychologist at the same time on you.
Anagha Sharma 01:56
Yes, that's correct.
Dr. Marianne Trent 01:58
Love it. Could you tell us a little bit more about how that works and how you got into it and what your journey was before you became a trainee, quite a big question that one?
Anagha Sharma 02:09
That's a big question. Yeah, sure. So I'm currently a second year trainee, forensic and clinical psychologist, and I'm on the University of Birmingham, forensic clinical psychology doctorate. So it was kind of one of the first I think, the only one in the UK at the moment, I might be wrong with that. The first combined doctorate where you can train to become a forensic and a clinical psychologist. So it's a four year course and essentially, it combines elements from the clinical psychology doctorate that's run at Birmingham and the forensic psychology doctorate. So in a way, typically that if you wanted to become dual qualified as both a forensic and clinical psychologist, you would have to go and do both doctorate separately, kind of one after each other. So you do maybe clinical training first and forensic or vice versa, but the course was developed in a way that instead of doing two doctorates, which then would mean probably about six years, at least, it kind of cuts and cuts and gets rid of anything that overlaps. So I wouldn't have to do the same teaching again, when I'm doing the kind of more forensic teaching, if I've had it already in the clinical elements. So in that sense, the first two years of the course are aligned with the clinical psychology doctorate at the University. So I have kind of clinical teaching and then the last two years are with the forensic doctorate, so we join their cohort and have the forensic teaching.
Dr. Marianne Trent 03:29
Sounds amazing and you still have to do a thesis as part of that.
Anagha Sharma 03:34
Yes, so that still includes a thesis that you'll just be doing one and I guess you start kind of collecting ideas for that in the first year and then the second, third and fourth years are kind of where that kind of goes ahead and then you submit it in your fourth year. So I guess compared to clinical trainees, you have an extra year then to do your thesis and the write up.
Dr. Marianne Trent 03:53
Yeah, so it's four years, and you come out with both and then you can register with the HCPC and the VPS with both.
Anagha Sharma 04:02
Yeah, that's right.
Dr. Marianne Trent 04:03
Ah, love that time efficiency as well, because he wanted to study for six years if you can do it for four, really, really good.
Anagha Sharma 04:11
I really admire people who've done both because I think it's a very long gun. I think it's a lot of hard work, but being able to do it in a shorter route and still have the same benefits, I think is really important.
Dr. Marianne Trent 04:21
And I understand from our little pre chat, that even within your cohort, perhaps some of you are funded and some of you are self-funded. So this kind of disparity even within the cohort.
Anagha Sharma 04:33
Yeah, so the course started running in 2013 and they typically take five or six trainees, kind of per cohort. So I'm self-funded, but there are some trainees who are also funded. So there is like, as far as I'm aware, there isn't like specific places that are just self-funded or just funded. So I guess from my experiences of self-funding, that means that you'd have to pay the university tuition fee as you would fill up an undergraduate degree and you pay a certain amount per annum. I started in 2021 and my fee per year is 13 and a half 1000 pounds, which is a lot of money, you can definitely appreciate that and I think that's the kind of changes every year, which is probably based on inflation. I'm not sure exactly what and I guess we're self-funded. That means when you do have your placement, you're in an area contract. So you won't necessarily get a paid placement. I know that there are some paid placements out there. I'm not sure how easy they are to find and I guess that could be difficult, but so far, my placements have been more honorary contracts, but there are some people on the course who are funded and I know the university does have links with the Birmingham Solihull NHS Trust and with St. Andrew's healthcare, and they're a private health care company. I'm not entirely sure how the funding works, but I guess it would be kind of speaking with the horse and speaking with kind of line management sort of out.
Dr. Marianne Trent 06:00
Yeah, so are you eligible to apply for like student loans funding to help or does it all have to be literally out of your own pocket?
Anagha Sharma 06:08
Yeah, so eligible to apply. So I've applied for the postgraduate doctoral loan, which is held by the government and it kind of works in a similar way as you would for like an undergraduate tuition fee. So you apply for the loan, I think the amount that you can get is around 27,000, it might be a bit more than that. So I think that regularly changes and I guess you can do whatever you want, with that kind of funding that you get, and you get it as you would an increment. So at three or four points in the year, you get that kind of money and then you're responsible with doing what kind of whatever you want with that, but it doesn't cover the entire tuition fee. That's the only thing.
Dr. Marianne Trent 06:44
Okay, so are you having to kind of get paid employment to cover your living fees, then as well.
Anagha Sharma 06:52
So I think some people probably would try and do that. I think I'm quite lucky because I've been financially in a position where I could sell fund, but I appreciate that's not the case for a lot of people and the fees are really high and we're not we don't really get the traditional like health, like he funding that the clinical trainees would get and it's kind of a bit more similar to the forensic in that sense. Whereas because of forensic trainees tend to self-fund and don't have that allocated funding from the government or the NHS.
Dr. Marianne Trent 07:19
Yeah, there's definitely differences in though so I remember when I was an assistant psychologist, actually at St. Andrews health care and yes, the forensic trainees were self-funding, whereas the clinical ones weren't and it's just difficult, because essentially, you're doing a very similar job and I think even some of the teaching that you're doing is pretty similar. Are you going to the clinical teaching, or is it like separate from just use six code on your cohorts.
Anagha Sharma 07:47
So we join the other cohort teaching others, I think it'd be very small for just the six of us to have our teaching. So in the first two years, we joined teaching on the clinical course. So we have all, basically exclusively clinical teaching and then the last few years, the third and fourth years, we joined the forensic cohort, and we have more of the forensic base teaching them, but our placements across the kind of four years can be kind of exclusively clinical, so maybe in more kind of clinical NHS, mental health settings, community or inpatient, but they can also be in forensic setting. So forensic mental health services in prison or probation services as well.
Dr. Marianne Trent 08:22
I just think it sounds brilliant, you must know just that depth of knowledge and experience that you're able to be acquiring is really good. So when I was an assistant, I was in forensic services, all of my system posts were forensic services and I really liked the yeah, that knowledge that I had to bring to the table and my experience of working in forensic services, I'm with, you know, forensic psychiatrist, for example, but I was aiming down the clinical route, but it's kind of it's just kind of interesting and nice to know that there is there is a path where you could potentially combine both of them without having to do six years.
Anagha Sharma 09:01
Yeah and I guess what's really helpful is about this kind of doctor is you have clinical psychologist who can work really in a range of settings because of their training, so they can work in clinical settings, but they can also work in forensic settings. Whereas from my understanding, forensic psychologists are kind of more able to work just in forensic settings, but I guess having this doctorate means that I can work in a variety of settings and really draw on kind of the skills from both disciplines. So we know that in kind of in forensic settings, or for example, in prison population, there's lots of individuals who are in there who have undiagnosed mental health needs or their mental health needs aren't often recognized or not often that in that setting, but then we also know in clinical settings, or in forensic mental health settings, that things like risk assessment is really important on thinking about when an individual is well enough and ready enough to move on if they're in an inpatient setting into the community and think about what that means for not only public protection, but any potential victims of kind of crime. So it's really helpful because you get training that's specific across all of those four years where you address both of those elements. Because I guess I was kind of keen in either applying to my course or applying to the clinical course and kind of my plan was to keep rotating and rotating until I get into one of them and luckily, I got into my course and I guess the only thing about the clinical course that I felt was that I would only really get, I would, I wouldn't get much forensic teaching and I guess the only forensic placement I'd have was would be maybe on my third year on more of a specialist placement, but I get that kind of throughout within my course at the moment, which I'm really enjoying.
Dr. Marianne Trent 10:36
Yeah, so your placements are... Well, my question should be, what sort of work are you doing on your placements? And I don't, you know, we don't we don't identify exactly where you are. But, you know, could you give us an overview or an example of what a typical placement might be for someone in your cohort?
Anagha Sharma 10:52
Yeah, so I guess the placements kind of vary, but in terms of the course, we kind of aligned with the clinical course in that aspect that you need to gain competencies and experiences working across the lifespan. So that will include an adult placement and other adult placement, a child and young person placement and also kind of in your neuro typical population. So for example, like a learning disabilities placement, but also to get competency in the forensic side, you need to work with offenders and all kinds of victims of crime and we know that in a lot of settings, or a lot of cases that individuals who are victims of crime, sometimes in later life, then also go on to offend. So I guess with that, it kind of depends, because I could be on a particular type of placement and someone else on my cohort might not be on the same type of placement, but we just have to gain competencies and all of that across the four years. So my kind of how the structure of the course is, is that in your first year, you'll have a kind of 10 month long placement and your second, you have to kind of placements, that six months, third year, I think, or fourth year, it's kind of either 110 months, and then two, six months and that could run concurrently. So you have maybe two days on one service one day and another service, but it's I guess, the course is really tailored to your journey. So if you were able to get placement that it might be better to be there for 10 months, then you might have a 10 month placement for kind of gaining specialty in that area. So it does really vary. So at the moment, I've had a 10 month forensic adult placement when I was an inpatient settings, and I've also had, I'm currently on a forensic learning disability placement, and then I'll go on to have another six month placement at the end of kind of towards the next half of my second year. If that makes sense.
Dr. Marianne Trent 12:36
It does make sense and it sounds yeah, just very similar to the clinical. It's just that you've got that added element of forensic stuff as well and what's your journey before you applied and was successful in this person? Was it already kind of quite forensic II anyway? Can you tell us a little bit about what you did in terms of undergrad and you know, where you went from there?
Anagha Sharma 13:06
Yeah, of course. So I can just my A levels, I got into an undergrad, and I did my degree in psychology and I had some forensic modules in my third year that I really, really enjoyed and I had some health modules that I also really, really enjoyed. So I was kind of like, oh, do I apply? I wanted, I know, I wanted to study further and do a master's and I thought, oh, do I apply for a health psychology based Master's or a forensic psychology based master's, and I ended up going with a forensic group. So I then went and did my Master's in forensic psychology and my attention at that time was to then apply for a forensic doctorate and the masters that I was on was accredited for the stage one of qualification in forensic psychology and it's kind of different from how it works, but stage two with me, and you'd either go on and do a forensic psychology doctorate, or you would be a trainee forensic psychology psychologist and get kind of your forensic placements, however long that might take, you wouldn't have to do a thesis, and then you'd be qualified as a forensic psychologist. So again, quite difficult from quite different from clinical training, and a bit different from my course.
After that, I think I thought I would get an assistant post quite easily, but I didn't because I didn't have a lot of experience. I think a lot of people also experienced that. So I worked as a trainee peer support worker for a few months, I then moved on to a healthcare assistant role. So I wanted to get some more forensic experience. So that was in a secure forensic unit. I was there for about eight or nine months and then I got my first assistant psychology post and that was in a forensic service as well and then after that, I was kind of at the point when I was deciding, oh, should I go down the forensic route or the clinical route, or kind of my course was, which is the combined elements and I thought maybe it'd be really helpful for me to step into more of a clinical post so I could kind of see how I liked it and see kind of what the differences were from my current position at the time. So I then went on to a clinical post, where I was working across two services and I kind of found that I liked working in clinical settings, but forensic was really where my passion was. So after that, I decided I would apply for the, as I said, the forensic clinical doctor and the clinical doctorate because I could work in kind of either settings with both of those courses. I actually did apply for the forensic doctorate, I didn't get in, I was on first reserve and then I also applied for my course in the same year, and I ended up getting on so I guess compared to other people, I don't have a lot of a lot a lot of experience before I got on to training, but more of it was forensic based.
Dr. Marianne Trent 15:39
Is it a similarly competitive course to get on to as you'd find with clinical, how did you experience that?
Anagha Sharma 15:48
I would say it's kind of different and competitiveness, because I would acknowledge it is still competitive and it is kind of hard to get on the course, but it's different in the sense where clinical courses, you have a lot more places, I'm not really sure how many places there are these days, and it varies per course, but you might have kind of 20 or 30 people per cohort, and then you get kind of a really large number of people applying and then it kind of narrows down with that, but with my course, I'm assuming that less people apply, but also there's only five or six places. So it is competitive, but I think it's competitive in a different way, if that makes sense.
Dr. Marianne Trent 16:21
Yeah, brilliant and in terms of the timeline, obviously, for clinical, we tend to expect applications to open around September and to shut kind of mid-November it is now and then applicate interviews will be kind of springtime. How does it work? In terms of your course?
Anagha Sharma 16:39
Sure, yeah. So, I think every year, the application process opens in January, and then I can't remember specific closing date, but it's around kind of May, June or July and then your interview is kind of within a month or two. So, I guess the timelines are quite different from the clinical course where they tend to be earlier in the year and I guess with the application, what's different is as well as you'd apply through the University of Birmingham, so there isn't like kind of a clearinghouse portal that you will apply, you just go directly to the university.
Dr. Marianne Trent 17:10
Great and it starts in September, does it? Academic year?
Anagha Sharma 17:15
Yeah. So it starts in September, and it'll be kind of September of the year, you start till the September, I guess, four years after, I guess the timelines could vary in that sense, because if there were periods where, for example, if people are off on maternity leave, or they've got extended sickness, then it's like, kind of the minimum amount, you would complete the courses in four years, but if there are reasons that you might need to extend things, and that is also possible with, of course, are very supportive.
Dr. Marianne Trent 17:41
Oh, that's really good to know and actually, this is ideal timing with this podcast going out in January as well, because people might be like, oh, that's another little string to my bow and if people are waiting for clinical, but they are in a position where they could self-fund, or whether their current employer might consider self-funding them, it kind of prompts little conversation, doesn't it to kind of, yeah, to have not even a backup plan, but I haven't had a different plan, you know, something that I certainly wasn't aware of, but this could have potentially been a quite a good route for me, given my forensic background, and I might equate, like doing qualifying in both, but if future proofs you as well, doesn't it? So when I was qualifying, I was like, well, I could apply for forensic and, you know, ended up going down into clinical places, but you don't always necessarily want to work in forensic services, but you don't always necessarily want to work in clinical services, but when I became a mummy, for me, I felt like I wasn't so keen on going back to forensic and I know some people feel the same as well and when I was working with trainee forensic psychologists, some of them were saying at the time, you know, I find it really difficult to work with people who've hurt animals, for example, and others will be saying, well, I find it really difficult to work with people who've hurt children, you know, there's, there's different, like hard limits, isn't that but being Yeah, just being qualified across both areas, is really nice future proofing, because you don't know how your life might change or how, you know, society and culture might change as well.
Anagha Sharma 19:11
Yeah, and I agree completely, because I guess that's why I was really attracted to the course because I thought, you know, when I qualify if I want to work in a particular clinical setting, and a few years later, I might want something different than I have that flexibility to change and I've always said, like, I really enjoy working in forensic settings now, but I'm not sure I would always want to work in a forensic setting and there are other areas within forensics and are other areas within clinical psychology that I find really interesting, like clinical kind of health services. So having that kind of option there, I think is something really important for me and I think that's why people might be attracted to the course as well.
Dr. Marianne Trent 19:44
Definitely, flexibility and choice like, yeah, all the way. Something has been really interesting to talk about with some of the podcast guests recently is thinking about, you know, how faith and culture shows up for them and how that fits with what they're doing in the psychology world, would it be okay, if you feel comfortable to talk about it to talk a little bit about your faith and your culture and how that impacts on you and your psychology journey?
Anagha Sharma 20:11
Yeah, sure. So I am from kind of an Asian Indian background and I follow religious faith as well and I think, kind of being in a field as a brown Asian woman, there's not always a lot of people who look like me, there might be a lot of service users that are from kind of minority backgrounds, but actually, there's not a lot of professionals that look like me and work with the same people that we do. So I think having representation in the field is really, really important and it was only recently, in somewhere I worked that I actually was able to work with people from a similar background of me, and I just found it really, really nice to have that view there and I guess something that the course are really kind of seeing as important as well as with race and culture and actually, in my course, we have race workshops. So we have them, I think, three or four times a year and we get together with our cohort and some members of the course team and we talk about things like race and culture and what we bring to our training, how we can help others to explore their race and culture and the impact that it has on them in their lives. So I think that's something that's really important to think about and yeah, and just know, because I think that's maybe not something that a lot of people know about the course that they are really driven about that and I guess the course is based in Birmingham, and Birmingham is a really diverse area. So thinking about working with the communities we serve, and having that representation and developing kind of professionals and trainees who are minded in that sense, and they have an appreciation for the impact it can have on people and their background is really important.
Dr. Marianne Trent 21:46
Yeah, I worked in heart Birmingham for four years after I qualified and it's a real privilege to work with so many different cultures and backgrounds, but it's also a real skill, so in my working week, I would often be working probably with maybe even as many as one in four cases, were using an interpreter, either because the child or the young person didn't speak English or their parents didn't and we needed to be able to kind of make sure everyone was understanding what we were doing and it's a real skill, actually learning to work with different cultures and to try and to respect different cultures and values and I used to try and make it my mission that I would learn at least how to say hello, and goodbye, and how are you to people in their own language and I'd like to have it all written down in my diary on the right page and I'd have to flip to it and then like, remind myself, but it seems to fall out of my head, as soon as I stop working. It's important to do our best to work with people to involve them with the service, but I think it is also a very unique skill that you build when you're working in real a diverse, diverse areas.
Anagha Sharma 23:01
Yeah, and I think that's really important, because I guess, developing services that are culturally competent, is really helping to serve the people that we work with and if we think about in a lot of cases that we know that help seeking behaviors are less likely to be displayed by people of minority backgrounds or people who have emigrated here or not necessarily born in this country. So I think working with that is really important and thinking about what we can do to help the people out there actually access the services, and get the help that they need and thinking about what we can do as professionals to make them feel a bit more comfortable and if there's anything that we can put in place to make that more likely to happen. I think that's something that we should really be thinking about all the time.
Dr. Marianne Trent 23:45
I definitely agree and another question that I often ask people on the podcast is, what your top tips or the way that you help yourself to not burn out on your way to becoming qualified. So could you give us a little bit of a flavor about how you kind of sought your work life balance out so that you're thriving, not just surviving?
Anagha Sharma 24:09
Yeah, of course and I think a lot of that is really important. I think one thing that's really important with that is firstly, boundaries and I was listening to another episode of your podcast earlier and that was mentioned that I thought, yeah, boundaries is really important. So for me, what I like to do is, I try my best and I'm not always good at this and I think that's a very big learning curve, for me is to kind of work within your work hours and not go over your working hours and make sure you're actually taking care of yourself in that way and I guess the way that the course is structured is that we have three days of placement, one university teaching day, which is face to face, and also one study day, and I try my best to stay within those boundaries.
So I'm only going to do our placement work on placement days. I'm going to do my other uni assignments or my thesis stuff on my study day and then I'm going to focus just on university teaching and socializing with people in the class on kind of my university days, I guess one thing that I tried to stick by the best as I can, is not doing any work on the weekends. That's kind of uni related or work related, I say that I try my best and especially like around now when it's like the more festive time where I want to be taking time off kind of placement and spending more time with friends and family, I think that's my saving grace and the only time I try and do work on the weekends, for example, I've got an assignment coming up or something really important that I need to get finished by a particular deadline, but I find if even if that means spending more time, you know, Monday to Friday, doing a particular piece of work, at least I have my weekend.
So I can rest and recover, spend time with my loved ones go out and do things that are important to me, I like exercising, I have some fish that I take care of my pets. So like lots of things like that and that kind of helps to take a break, because people always say, you have to go on to have to get on training have to get on training, but actually, when you get onto training, I kind of had the impression like I knew training would be difficult and I think there are times where I found it a bit more difficult, or I've had more of a steeper learning curve and other times where I felt okay, it's not, I guess what I've learned is not intense 100% of the time, there are bits of the course where actually I might need to knuckle down and do a bit more work and I have less of a social life on the weekend and there are other times where I'm feeling a bit more relaxed, and I'm on top of things.
So I guess boundaries and I think time management was a real one, because there were times where, oh, you know, I've got work coming up, but I'm going to have a break, I'm gonna have an extended break, and then I'm not going to do any work, which is bad. So I think for me learning how to manage that, to not be someone who's working 24/7, but taking some time out to relax is how things like you can stop things like burnout, and just being honest with yourself, and realizing when you do need a break and I think also being honest to the course team. So we have kind of monthly meetings with someone from the course team and it's kind of a check in on how things are going with the course how are things going academically? But also how are things going with placement? And then the last kind of most important question is how are you? And actually that's your space, to be really honest with yourself and with the course and let them know if there's anything that you're finding difficult or struggling with and they are really accommodating and they are very supportive. So they're always kind of looking out for your best interest and I think that's one of the really big perks of the course is having that support from the course team.
Dr. Marianne Trent 27:23
Good. Yeah, it does make all the difference when you're seen as a human, but yeah, people find it strange when I say I really enjoyed my training and my cohort have reminded me that I didn't always enjoy it. You know, there was one particular experience, which was quite challenging personally and professionally and it led to me being quite upset, you know, for probably a couple of weeks and they're like, don't forget that, because that was still part of your experience, but on the whole genuine genuinely and generally, I really enjoyed it. Like I felt like, excited, I felt proud, I felt like I was able to achieve and like I was doing good work and learning good stuff, and having good relationships with my cohort and the people in my team. So I did enjoy it and I felt like you said it was tricky at times and certainly it's not much fun when someone says, oh, do you want to come to the pub? And you go no, because I've got an assignment. You know? Yeah, it doesn't, you know, work doesn't always finish and end at like, 5pm Because, you know, your clinical placement might do we find that placement in your case, but then you've got an assignment that, you know, that's due in next week and so it is another added layer of demand, but it's well worth it. You know, I wouldn't be speaking to you now, had I not done what I've done and got to the end. So yeah, but you should kind of you should be enjoying it should be enjoyable, at least it parts along your journey, I think.
Anagha Sharma 28:50
Yeah and I agree and I go through those similar waves of kind of the imposter syndrome when you first start and I think the imposter syndrome comes out every time I start a new placement, like, oh, am I doing? Do I know my stuff and actually, then I kind of relax and take back and I think about all the teaching that I've had at university and all the things I've learned on placement, all of the things that I'm bringing from me myself as a person from my background, my culture, my experiences, my pre-qualification experiences, which has been the most important and valuable and thinking about what I bring and what I learn and putting those altogether and actually realizing, oh, you know, I'm okay, I know what I'm doing. There might be some times where I don't know, there are people around me who can support me whether that's people on the course, like my, my cohort who really, really, really, really get along with or it could be people on the course team or it could be kind of friends and family and just knowing actually, I'm okay and yes, it's a process. It's four years, it might be a long time longer than kind of clinical training, but actually it's really worth it in the end and it's really rewarding to kind of be in a job where you can help people and I think that's kind of another key motivator for me.
Dr. Marianne Trent 29:56
Definitely the biggest privilege people. I think you either you are help any type of person or you're not, but I just honestly, I think I've got the best job in the world, you might have the second best job in the world once you're qualified in dual modalities, but I just love it. I love what you do and it's just I consider it a real privilege and I have I not asked you something that you think I should have done?
Anagha Sharma 30:21
I don't think so. I think we're good.
Dr. Marianne Trent 30:23
We've covered most things, but honestly, it's been the biggest privilege to have you on here and to, to learn more about this pretty unique scheme to become dual qualified. So thank you so much for accepting my invitation to talk about it and you've done an incredible job and I know people will find it really interesting.
Anagha Sharma 30:44
Thank you so much for having me and I hope someone out there listening to this might have an insight into a course that they might have not heard of, and I hope it helps someone.
Dr. Marianne Trent 30:53
People get on to training as a result of hearing about it. We want to know about it. Don't wait, we want you know, contact me, let me know and I can get in contact with you and let you know because, you know, that's I love it when people say, oh, I didn't realize that I could do something else in seven assistant posts and actually, because of reading your book or hearing your podcast, I've now I've got this job I wouldn't even thought to search for. So it's really nice when we get to actually impact in a really positive way on people's lives from what we're doing. So yeah, if this is useful for you along the line, then yeah, we love your feedback. We'd love to, we'd love to know. So thank you so much and wishing you all the best with the rest of your training and with your doctoral thesis, as well.
Anagha Sharma 31:37
Thank you so much.
Dr. Marianne Trent 31:39
Wow, how amazing was that Anagha has blown my mind, actually, it's really good to know that there's this dual modality way of qualifying and it might be that there's other courses that are also offering this across the country as well or it might just be that it's still Birmingham that are the only people doing it, but how incredible to think that that exists. So thank you so much to Anagha and like we said, if you find this interesting, or if it leads you down a different path than the one that you'd imagined, let us know. Let me know how that pans out for you.
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